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Every child is an artist. The challenge is how to remain one as we grow. I'm Shawna Vesco Ahern, and this is Art Yap. The podcast where I gab with Bay Area creatives about imagination, arts, culture, and everything in between. Today's episode features Allison Gamlen a lifelong arts advocate who now serves as the visual and performing arts coordinator for the San Mateo [00:01:00] County Office of Education.
We talk about growing up in the wings of the symphony and kabuki theater. What happens to the brain when children are denied creativity and how California's Prop 28 is giving public school students a shot at becoming the next generation of culture makers. This episode is for anyone who knows that the arts aren't extra, they're essential, that creativity is a human right, and that without it we risk losing not just stories, but entire futures.
Let's get into it.
welcome to Art Yap. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much for coming on the show. I don't, you know, let's start with you as a person. Your, 'cause, your role and then what you do are sort of different. Can you tell me a little bit about when you knew you were a creative type?
Allison Gamlen: Wow. I don't know if I ever had a moment, um, besides being a child, I was the oldest of four kids and my, we, we lived really close to my.
Mom's parents [00:02:00] and my grandma would just take me around as her little buddy when I was like 2, 3, 4, 5 years old to the symphony and the ballet and the museums and the opera. And I remember as a child, um, she took me to what I now know was a kabuki production of the Shakespeare play Macbeth. But I didn't know what any of those things meant at the time.
And Kabuki is a style of Japanese theater that's very, um, bright colors and also like representational mo like representation and symbolism as opposed to naturalism. Mm-hmm. Or realism. And I just remember, um, being as a, as a child and they had these just, everything felt larger than life to me. And there was bright red and black and smoke and.
All kinds of things going on, and it was absolutely terrifying. I could not follow the plot, but I was so enthralled by what was happening. Mm-hmm. And I knew. I, I just knew that that was the life for me, whatever was [00:03:00] happening there was, was for me and my parents, I think as a mode of childcare, put me into dance classes after school, I would just get a ride with a friend.
I would take three classes in a row and get picked up when my dad got off work. Mm-hmm. And, and I, so just dance and movement and theatrics and expression. We're all just part of my life growing up and I now as an older person, I've like, oh man, why didn't I get into tech? Or like, why didn't I study finance?
Mm-hmm. Or, you know, other career paths. But I just never considered ever doing anything else. Yeah.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: That was my next question is, you know, did that family support for. Exploring other worlds in your imagination, continue from high school into college. 'cause I hear from a lot of people, there's pressure to sort of leave that behind or treat it like a hobby.
Mm-hmm. And sort of do this other thing. Mm-hmm. And so I'm always curious to hear about people's journey into their major, especially in performing arts or visual arts. Mm-hmm.
Allison Gamlen: I think my parents did the best they could [00:04:00] with me. I went to high, I was in high school in the nineties. Mm-hmm. And then I went to college in 1995 and I don't feel like I had a lot of support at all.
I didn't have a ton. The support from my high school on the peninsula, and my parents were like, sure, whatever. Just be happy. They would say that like, we just want you to be happy. Like whether I was a dentist or a vet or you know, an antique collector or whatever, I think they would've been mm-hmm. Mildly supportive, but they weren't.
Just, you know, like, they were like, oh, Allison's fine. She'll figure it out. Mm-hmm. That's kind of always been the family mantra around me.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: My grandma was the same way. Yeah. It was very much, you know, whatever makes you happy, go study that. Right. But I'm, I'm hearing the opposite now with all these people on TikTok trying to give Gen Z advice and they say, don't do what makes you happy.
Do what you're good at. Right. Um, as if those are definitely two separate things. Right. And so, and I kind of get it. I do. I like, you know. Okay. Well I really. Like doing this thing and it brings me joy, but I'm really great at this opposite thing. Mm-hmm. That I maybe don't love doing so much. Mm-hmm. For me, [00:05:00] that's not the way it worked.
Mm-hmm. I'm only good at things that also make me happy. Mm-hmm. There's a feedback loop there that I can't get out of for better or for worse. Um, but I wonder where this is gonna go with that kind of opposite advice or this people thinking about arts and humanities as separate from these other industries.
Mm-hmm. And not that creativity generates creativity across the board in different sectors. A hundred percent. I kind of like. That mode of thinking a lot better and trying to find ways to support that. Um, both inside and outside of sort of like academic Absolutely. Arenas. No,
Allison Gamlen: I feel like I'm fighting the same fight.
Um, thinking about creativity as applied creativity. Mm-hmm. We use creative thinking in every single industry and I, you know, I work in education at, um, part of my gig at the county Office of Education and. Sometimes I feel like I'm still trying to convince people that like, no, you, we, what is a scientist without also being a creative thinker.
Mm-hmm. What is a mathematician? Or how can we, why are these, these subject areas taught separately? Mm-hmm. When they all intertwine, what does [00:06:00] art without history. Writing, science, math, you know, understanding whatever was going on like in the government or like civically. Mm-hmm. At the time that an artist was creating something or expressing something.
Right. They're all completely intertwined.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: So let's get into it because your job is very interesting and I think if you were to go to a career fair or ask people. Parents especially, you know, how would your child use this degree later? Your job's a very good example of that, but it's one of those that people don't really think of.
Mm-hmm. Or know that it is a job. Right. So tell the kind listeners sort of what your title is and then what you do there.
Allison Gamlen: Well, I love my job. I have my dream job minus the commute, uh, but I'm the visual and performing arts coordinator for the San Mateo County Office of Education, which means that I. I just love talking about this.
I get to support, um, students ages TK through grade 12 in all of our schools in San Mateo County. Um, I get to support all [00:07:00] five art forms, uh, dance, drama or theater, visual arts, media arts and music. I get to support all teachers who are like credentialed arts teachers, and I feel like since. Every class is an arts class and every student is an artist.
I also work with classroom teachers as well. Mm-hmm. Who might not consider themselves to be artists or who might not have an arts credential.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Um, and how many people, is this just for scale? Like how many teachers or how many students are sort of
Allison Gamlen: Oh goodness. We have, I think we have a, about 90,000 students in the county.
There. It is. We serve 23 districts. We serve over 500 schools. I do things like district professional development training, um, with teachers sometimes around bringing in arts strategies, for example, to leverage the strengths of our multilingual learners. Mm-hmm. That might be something I do, or I work with arts teachers directly to bring in more social emotional learning strategies to help build more cla uh, classroom [00:08:00] community.
Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes I go into classrooms directly, I do visits just to see. Some cool, unique things that are going on, especially now that we have an influx of Prop 28 money supporting new programs. Sometimes I'll go in teach a guest lesson or I'll pair with a teacher if they're teaching something new and they need some support.
Um, I go to conferences and present at conferences. I go to trainings. I have a statewide cohort. Mm-hmm. Um, there's someone who covers visual and performing arts in every county in our whole state. I feel very lucky that that is the one hat that I wear. Whereas some people cover all subject areas or they do things like steam and including the arts.
Um. I get to work with the other people on my curriculum and instruction team. Mm-hmm. And we think of like different projects that we can do or different ways to work with teachers. I'm working, um, on a couple different, like, cross-curricular projects right now. Um, sometimes I [00:09:00] even teach dance classes at the county office for other employees there, or bring in some trauma informed art strategies just to support the community that we have there in the building.
Would you, 15 years ago. Have imagined yourself being in this role? I didn't even know this role existed. Right. I mean, I just quickly going back to the, you know, college planning question or how I got into this, like I didn't know I wanted to be an actor. Mm-hmm. I thought I would graduate college, go to Broadway, sleep on a futon in somebody's kitchen, done perfect, bam, and then eventually make it on Broadway.
Mm-hmm. Um. So I, I didn't choose the right school for that. Like I just chose a school close to home that accepted me. Mm-hmm. I only applied to three schools. I didn't have a super broad reach and I didn't know that. I mean, a theater degree could branch out into so many different areas, whether it's wedding planning, event producing mm-hmm.
[00:10:00] Acting, running a podcast. I mean, there's so many things that. Those kind of tools support the skillset supports. So no, I had absolutely no idea. I didn't even know, yeah. Like I said, that there was a county office. Mm-hmm. Um, as an arts teacher, I think we often, when I was teaching in a high school for 15 years, we, um, weren't served by some of the bigger programs that the county was supporting.
And I think that's a. Kind of a mindset, right. Concern,
Shawna Vesco Ahern: I'm, I'm interviewing you both, like as a mom of two toddlers that are about to go into mm-hmm. San Mateo County district schools. Mm-hmm. And then also as someone who worked in higher education teaching for almost a decade. Um, so I've kind of like seen a lot between Right.
T KT University. Mm-hmm. And I'm so interested, and I don't know how much you care to speak to this, um, about. The funding and how that works for these programs. Mm-hmm. Like is it all, um, state, is it local? Is there [00:11:00] some way tech or other industries could like, contribute but without kind of muddying the waters?
Like how does all of that end of it work?
Allison Gamlen: That is a great question. Um, it's like a big question too. You No, it's a big question. So, uh, I don't wanna ramble. Um, no, it's a, it's a big question. So California first, our public schools are, we are funded through. State money. Mm-hmm. Every pupil in California, um, receive not every pupil, let me start again.
So that's a big question. Yeah. Um, in our state public school funding works that schools receive a certain amount of money per pupil. I think right now it's close to like $7,800 per year. Right. So say school A mm-hmm. Receives that much money and they're in maybe a, a lower income neighborhood or under-resourced neighborhood we might call it, and that might be really all they get.
Mm-hmm. So those students are less likely to have any art form that is [00:12:00] taught by a credentialed teacher because. Some schools don't prioritize the arts, despite the fact that, and you know, California law and ed Code art is, or the arts are considered to be as equal importance as math, science, ELA, every subject area.
So it's not that there's not funding, but funding for the arts is not prioritized. Then we have school B, which might be three blocks away. And that school might have a foundation. They might have a PTA or PTSO raising funds. They have, um, maybe families with two incomes or families with one income that can afford for a parent to stay home, who can go make cookies for the bake sale support.
Concessions for the music concert. Um, they can donate money, they can contribute social capital in the form of volunteering. And so that school has more resources. And they might raise the money to hire a drama teacher buy musical instruments, have a media arts program, um, and [00:13:00] now. We have like a third set of, uh, a third amount of money coming in through Prop 28, which was voted yes by a majority of Californians in 2022 funds.
Just started hitting the schools in February of 2023. So now we are, um, in the year two of funding, which is pretty amazing. Mm-hmm. And so every single school in California. Receives a certain amount of money per year. And that's based on two things. Number one is their enrollment for the prior year, like the average daily attendance for prior year.
Mm-hmm. And then number two, they receive a, a small bump for equity based on the number of students who, uh, qualify for free and reduced price lunch. So we have some one room schoolhouse in California that might be getting $6,000 a year. Mm-hmm. Like in the forest. Um, and then we have some of our school districts.
Right here on the peninsula who are receiving like over a million dollars annually. [00:14:00] Like so in our county we're, we're receiving about an average of 12 million. Mm-hmm. And those funds. Um, are separate from the general fund. It's categorical, meaning it must be spent on mm-hmm. Arts instruction and arts education.
80% of those funds must be spent on staffing. Okay. Because we build programs with people. Right. Um, and how's that end going? Is there. It's going great. You know, I hear about San Francisco Unified School District is having trouble finding teachers. Right. Are you having trouble finding teaching artists or is that We, so we are, again, our, our first priority is really to hire credentialed teachers.
Mm-hmm. To build programs or to expand. So if a teacher, if you were a photography teacher only teaching three classes and there was, uh, a definite interest in more photography, we might add another section or two to your schedule. Mm-hmm. So we wouldn't be hiring. More, but we would be increasing access.
That's really the goal, is to increase access for students, um, as we are in the Bay Area. And [00:15:00] there's such disparity in pay. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, you know, and a teacher, an artist will drive from Marin County down to Woodside for better pay. Mm-hmm. And San Francisco Unified. I, you know, I know that they're having a lot of.
Concerns in the media around grading for equity and mm-hmm. They've had payroll issues in the past. Unfortunately their pay is not competitive for teachers. Yeah. Especially even when I was lecturing and I felt that my friend and I called it junk calling 'cause we'd be junk calling around the bay.
Seriously? To Deza, to City College, to SF State. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we are, uh, we, it is competitive. Um, and there are some districts who are able to pay more and want to pay more and are, you know. Credential teachers will go to those districts. We can supplement with teaching artists and our nonprofit arts partners.
Mm-hmm. We have schools that are hiring them to do like an afterschool theater program, or they're coming in for artist residencies, which is another great way to bring the arts into classes. The teaching artists, uh, typically don't teach. Well, I shouldn't say typically, I'll say the credentialed teachers are more likely to teach standards based arts that are assessed.
Mm-hmm. So [00:16:00] students are working in a sequential pathway to Right learn skill sets that can then articulate to the next grade level or the next school that they go to. And that's where we really see big development. And now you started this whole story with talking about early exposure to the arts that you had through your family.
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Uh, why do we care? Why should we help children see themselves as makers and creators and you know, what good is it to have the kids dabbling in imagination if they're not gonna get these tech jobs with that?
Allison Gamlen: That's a great question. I feel like now more than ever, the arts are so important in children's lives.
If we're talking just about early childhood education, we know that the brain is, uh, in its biggest time of growth that a human will ever see between the ages of like two and four.
Mm-hmm. We know that's when the brain is truly developing. Language acquisition is happening, motor skills are happening at [00:17:00] that time. If a child is suffering from any kind of trauma. Which, you know, with the world being on fire and all the chaos and wildness that's happening right now, um, we think that can affect children deeply, whether it's, you know, being, um, undernourished, whether it's neglect, whether there's actual abuse happening in the home, like witnessing or experiencing themselves.
If a child is experiencing trauma. And their brain is in fight or flight. It literally shuts down learning happening. Mm-hmm. And it shuts down growth. Like we can see scans of a happy, healthy four year old's brain and a child who has been just suffering, neglect. Maybe parents aren't there to care for them.
Mm-hmm. Not, they're not being hugged and held as much. And the brain, the gray matter is literally smaller. Um. We know that the arts can help support the arts can bring in like neurological strengths. Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] And can bring in social emotional supports. Mm-hmm. To help reprogram parts of the brain and the young child that have been affected by trauma.
Like literally helping to reunite the visual and the verbal and help to reunite their memory so they can express. So that, I feel like that is just one argument for why the arts should be. You know, especially like why we should expose young kids to the arts for so many reasons. It helps to develop self-esteem, communication skills, collaboration.
Um, it, it exposes us to different cultures mm-hmm. Now more than ever in the Bay Area, uh, with the canceling of so many NEA grants and now Governor Newsom is threatening to pull the Equitable Arts payroll. Mm-hmm. Which is supports a lot of local. Um, artists and arts organizations after the passing of AB five, and I consider both of those things to be an attack on culture.
Yeah. It's not just [00:19:00] funding, like we're, we're not just erasing a line item on the state budget. Mm-hmm. It's an attack on the actual culture. And our young students, our young artists, those are our next generation of storytellers. Those will be our musicians. Those will record. Those folks will record what is happening in the world right now.
They will create the sculptures, they will create the bridges, they will write the stories, they will create the movies. And if we are not supporting them with funding and not giving their voices a place to go, or if we're, if we're even. If we're not validating their voices in the first place, making sure that they know that their stories are needed and wanted and valued.
We are going to wipe out an entire generation of stories and culture and representation, and we will continue to have the status quo as it has been, if that makes sense.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: You heard it here [00:20:00] first. Art education's important. I need a drink of tea after that. That's, yeah, let's have a sip of water. That's rough.
It's so true though. I don't, you know, and I feel like at least the people I talk to, which is a lot of people, we all agree. So it's like, why is this such an uphill battle? You know?
Allison Gamlen: It is an uphill battle. It has always been an uphill battle. Prop 28 is a win for us. But it's also the only subject area that is being funded by a ballot measure.
Mm-hmm. And that's because the schools aren't prioritizing it. Right. I ran a survey, I started at the county office in 2022. I ran a survey and learned that about 50% of our schools have no arts teacher whatsoever. And we're in a, you know, highly resourced area. They had no arts teacher. So luckily with Prop 28, many of our schools have increased that.
Mm-hmm. And some of our schools have all five arts programs fully fleshed out. Students [00:21:00] in some of our amazing high schools can take one art form from TK all the way through grade 12 Wow. And just kick ass in their music pathway. Mm-hmm. Or in theater or dance. Or they can take be in high school and try and dabble.
Mm-hmm. They can take media arts, they can be in the jazz band and they can be in the dance ensemble. And some of our schools don't offer that at all. And some of our middle schools as well. Right. So if your middle school doesn't offer that, but mine does. Mm-hmm. And we're both entering high school at the same time and we're both auditioning for dance ensemble or, or jazz band.
Which are audition only right experiences in many of our schools. There's literally no chance that some students will be accepted without any of that training. Yeah. And so then they're less likely to go on and play music in college or play music professionally. They're less likely to go on to become a screenwriter or a playwright or a director.
Those voices are just cut off, and that's why [00:22:00] I feel like. This, these changes to funding canceling these huge NEA grants, I mean, that are affecting every arts organization in the Bay Area, everywhere from Berkeley rep to your like queer, Southeast Asian, mm-hmm. Dance theater companies. Both equally doing equally valid work.
Berkeley rep has a higher chance of surviving because they have donor subscriptions and they're already Right, have their wheels turning. Legacy name. Legacy name, exactly. So it keeps me up at night. Have you seen, um, a really effective partnership between like schools in an arts organization or, I don't know, something that you think could be.
Duplicated and multiplied again and again. Absolutely. I, when I was teaching, I uh, used to teach at a high school in San Mateo. As a Dr as a new drama teacher, my first year in, I knew I needed help. Mm-hmm. Like, I just, I had all these classes. I was teaching tech [00:23:00] theater. I taught beginning and advanced drama, and I knew I needed support.
Because as a theater teacher, you're expected to do everything. Yeah. From teaching acting, to teaching dance, to teaching tech theater, to playwriting to this, to that. Right. The standards are so covered so much At Mercy, our, our theater teacher Yeah. Also taught English. Right. So yes. I did that for a couple years as well.
Yeah. So I reached out to our local theater company, theater Works, who are based in Silicon Valley, and I learned that they had a, um, young Playwrights project. Program artist in resi residency program and I signed on and we worked with them for 10 years. Wow. Even through the pandemic. And they would send a playwright, a teaching artist to my class four times a week.
Mm-hmm. Three or four times a week. And they taught every student in my class, regardless of age, grade level. How they identified to write a [00:24:00] one act, uh, a one act like a 10 minute. That's amazing. A 10 minute one act, which was amazing. Eight of those were selected to go on to another round of, uh, work and work shopping for a month.
Mm-hmm. So they worked with that playwright for one more month and then theater works hired. Some really amazing local professional actors and two directors to come in for a crazy day of rehearsals where these eight playwrights got to witness their work being rehearsed and acted, and they were the experts in the room on their own plays.
And then at night we had a one night only performance where the students got to observe their. Shows being performed by actors that you're now seeing on the A CT and Marin Theater Company and Berkeley Rep stages. What a peak life moment, right? It was amazing. It became a rite of passage in my class. And then those one acts, we use them for student directed projects.
We use them for [00:25:00] scenes. We use them to learn about costumes we use like those. That material also became like part of the culture of my classes as well. Have you heard back from any of those kids about Oh yeah. Some of those kids they're doing now, some of them have gone on to become playwrights. Wow.
Many of them have gone on to perform in different capacities. Mm-hmm. Some of the teaching artists and playwrights we've had have gone on to become like. Amazing famous artists. Our first playwright was Raphael Bob Wexberg, who went on to write BoJack Horseman. Wow. And, uh, we had another great playwright, Jake Archie mm-hmm.
Who, um, moved to LA is still like, he kind of does a little bit of everything, like many theater people do. He acts, directs, he produces, and he still works with theater Works as a playwright. That's incredible. That's a partnership I highly recommend. Mm-hmm. Because again, it's not just about. Oh, my kid doesn't wanna go to Broadway.
Mm-hmm. My kid doesn't wanna go to Hollywood. It's not about that as a, as an end game for me, it's about the [00:26:00] process. Mm-hmm. The writing, the empathy that is learned, the deep listening that one learns in a theater class, and how validating it is to work with professionals. You know, beyond just changing it up from like my voice as the teacher, like having someone new come in, but.
Having your, something you wrote performed by professionals was just such a, like, stellar experience for my students. It was awesome. I did not know you were gonna pop out that example that's, that's like really crazy and I, I just wonder how we could make more things like that. There's so many organizations mm-hmm.
And nonprofits and otherwise dotted throughout the Bay area. Mm-hmm. Exactly where our schools are dotted. Mm-hmm. If we could just somehow. Right. Matrix it, create some sort of network for that. Absolutely. There's a lot of teaching artists who are doing amazing work. Alphabet rockers works with groups. Um, they're highly focused in the East Bay and San Francisco, but they come in and they're doing anti-racist [00:27:00] workshops with students.
They, they lead staff and students to create new music, or they will like lead their own thing and perform and entertain. I mean, there's mm-hmm. You know, young audiences of Northern California, they're a group that has a whole roster of different teaching artists on their, um, on their website. And you can say like, oh, I wanna bring in a folklorico group.
Oh, I would like to bring in drumming. Mm-hmm. Oh, I wanna bring in someone to work with my students to create, like African textiles. I mean, it can be a pairing with something that's happening in the class. Mm-hmm. Like a co-curricular, kind of bringing something to life. Mm-hmm. Um, there's tons of people doing it and I, I don't know.
I don't know if those who are the decision makers in schools know how to start a program or if they know where to reach out. So I think, you know, going back to the, what is it that I do? Question? Yeah. Part of what I do is, is I try to support. Um, school, like school site and district administrators in [00:28:00] figuring out, you know, you've got this, you've got, you know, $200,000 coming into your school every year.
Mm-hmm. Right? Like, here are some different options. We also hope that these are culturally sustaining options for their students. Mm-hmm. That they reflect, um, that the artists and the art form reflects the student body and they can be, you know. Offer representation in a way that perhaps the students aren't receiving already.
I get so hung up on the like, um, communications and marketing end of this. So like all the people in the schools who kind of decide this, they all know you now, right? Many of them do. Many of them The ones who read my emails, yes. Okay. Because that's, I was like, is there some way a parent volunteer coalition?
Mm-hmm. With people from different, um, areas in San Mateo County could help you or like some sort of marketing and communications mm-hmm. Volunteer thing so people know that this option is out there. Is there something that, you know, we could form that would help you do this work? That is awesome. I have formed it.
Oh. Oh, good. And it [00:29:00] is growing one step ahead. Started a coalition last year called San Mateo County Creates. Mm-hmm. Um, we had our first two meetings last year. We have our next one coming up in September. Folks can definitely join. As of right now, we have a representative from every school district in our county.
Mm-hmm. Plus two wonderful people who work at the Office of Arts and Culture. Mm-hmm. In San Mateo County. Um, Dominique Enriquez, who runs Arts Ed Alliance of the Bay Area. We've got representation from young audiences of Northern California. But yeah, we would, we would love to have a, a stronger coalition.
We're producing an arts education conference on October 1st, so that's been our big, um, push right now. But we would, we would love to have more folks join. Is there anything else you would like to tell the fine people before we move into our Magic eight ball? Ooh. Um, I. Would say if, you know, our, our wonderful people are artists themselves, or if they have kids in their life, young artists in their life, I would say keep, [00:30:00] keep going to the arts.
Go to the museums, go see the shows, go see the high school shows. Go see the $60 a ticket or more shows if, if that's in your budget area, uh, keep supporting our Bay Area arts organizations, or they might not be here anymore. Mm-hmm. That's great advice. That's my final thought. And now time has come for you to ask the Magic Eight Ball, yes or no question?
Magic Eight Ball. Okay. My question is, and she's never wrong, so you have to be careful. Never wrong. She's never wrong. The Magic eight ball is never wrong. Okay, will Gavin Newsom keep the Equitable Arts Payroll Fund in the budget? Will Gavin Newsom keep the Equitable Arts Payroll Fund? And the answer is.
Most likely. Oh, I'll take it. That's a yai. Yeah, I will take it. I will take that Pretty good. Well, thank you. Thank you. This was fun. This was fun. Thanks for having me. And informative. Oh good. Yeah.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: [00:31:00] Thanks for listening to Art Yap. If you enjoyed this episode, the best way to support the show is to leave a rating or review. Share art Yap with a dreamer, a maker, a friend. Because good ideas are better when they don't end. For video trailers and sneak peeks, follow us on Instagram at Art yap underscore podcast.
Until next time, keep imagining. Keep creating and keep yapping.