Art Yap

Shawna Vesco Ahern: [00:00:00] This is an art. Yap. It is an art. Yap. We're talking art. Yap. Ity y
artfully. Artfully, artfully, artfully. Yap. Yap. Yap. It's.
A dream is a wish your heart makes. I'm Shawna Vesco Ahern, and this is Art Yap. The podcast where I gab with Bay Area creatives about imagination, arts, culture, and everything in between. Today's guest is Jonathan Carver Moore, a gallerist curator, and unapologetic advocate for emerging artists, especially artists of color and [00:01:00] queer voices.
Jonathan runs his namesake gallery in San Francisco's budding mid-market arts corridor, where he's created a space that's as bold, joyful, and fiercely intentional as the work he champions. In this episode, we talk about what it means to create space, literally and figuratively for artists who've historically been pushed to the margins.
We get into the roots of his journey, the power of representation, and the business of building a gallery that feels like a living room for the communities it serves. This one's full of honesty, laughter, and big ideas. Let's get into it.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Thank you again for coming on this podcast. I'm so excited to have you. When I first start putting together the guest list for season one, I was like, Jonathan Carver Moore has to be here.
And it's, it's like, I obviously appreciate your work, but I also really appreciate your algorithmic presence in my social feeds. It's like something will pop up and I know it's you. Like I know it's from your [00:02:00] space. Oh, a story or in the feed and it just like, feels like you. And it's funny because I could obviously write like scholarly articles about how you're unworking all of the apparatus of exclusion that the Western Modern project has been trying to apply to us.
but what stuck with me was actually a less highfalutin story from SS standard last fall when I did a little press check on you. And the story started with you. Working at Barney's? I did. Yeah. Putting your way through school. Yeah. and the story focused on, you know, fashion can be kind of an exclusionary space.
If you're not super thin or you don't look a particular way, it could be an uncomfortable world to be part of. In one larger woman would come in, some other salespeople might hide. They don't wanna do it, they don't wanna deal with it, but not you. You welcomed the challenge, you're there making your hourly wage anyway.
And I think the quote was like, I'm gonna dress the hell outta [00:03:00] these women.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Oh my gosh. First of all, you did your research and that is all very true. And well, one, thank you for having me, I should say on the podcast, this is quite exciting and, um, that is all true. Like I, I feel like those moments at Barney's have been moments that have stuck with me throughout my entire life so far.
And I really care a lot about this feeling of, you know, not other, but just. When you feel like you don't fit in a box. Mm-hmm. And I'm drawn to that much more than I'm drawn to someone that is like living what we think is like this perfect life. And I'm doing air quotes everyone, but that's not me.
And I loved it so much, like, you know, when women would come in and people didn't wanna help them because of their size possibly, or thinking they didn't have enough money to buy anything in the store. Like it was like a challenge to me. And they ended up becoming some of my top. People that would shop with only me.
Mm-hmm. And it was because I think that I made them feel special and seen.
Shawna Vesco Ahern:
Jonathan Carver Moore: And that's something that maybe I've always [00:04:00] wanted to see in myself from other people.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: So I think that me missing it and not feeling that same moment when I would walk into a store, you know, maybe now an art gallery and not feeling like someone's paying attention enough to what, who I am and what I want to do or talk about, or what I might wanna buy.
Made me go after that person who people did the same thing too. And the reality is, is that there's, there are many more people that can afford and do all those different things than people who we think are fitting into those boxes. Right. And I feel like that's what people are missing. And that's, to me, why I actually started the art gallery is because, well that's one of the reasons why I started the art gallery is that so many people would tell me stories about how, you know, they don't feel welcome when they go into space.
You know, I've had, I, I don't wanna name someone's name, but he's a huge, um, chief marketing officer of a former, um, the largest art e-commerce platform mm-hmm. In the entire world. [00:05:00] And he's said gallerist would not sell them, which is so wild to me, considering how major he is.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Yeah. He
Jonathan Carver Moore: has since moved on to become a CEO of another company.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: But the fact that he is who he is. And people don't wanna sell to him because he is a black man. It's just astonishing to me.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: And I said, I'm not gonna be that person. I want all the people to be able to come into the gallery, whether you're coming in to buy something, but I want you to be able to come in and feel comfortable with being in here, being able to ask questions and ask all types of questions like.
We all aren't born with art lingo. And by the way, like it seems like a lot of fluff sometimes. Right. You know, like, let's get to, what are we really looking at here? How does it make me think differently? What does it make me ask about the world that I live in?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: That's what I care more about. I don't care about the fluff and the, the nature of, you know, wanting to be someone's like this braggadocious person about a piece of art on the wall.
Let's talk about what's behind and what it means and how it can impact all of us in the world.
Shawna Vesco Ahern:
Jonathan Carver Moore: That is how I got there, and I feel like it started with, I mean, it was way before Barney's, but it was Barney's that led me [00:06:00] to realize that is the connection that I have and wanting to fill in the gaps.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Yeah. I've been so curious about the red thread that ties together all of your work history and personal experiences, and when did it become for you, like a really conscious process for you to say? I feel a way in these exclusionary spaces and I wanna make more spaces that are very inclusive. Like did you just kind of look back and notice, oh wow, I've been doing this for 10 years in various ways, in my various roles, and now I wanna intentionally sort of open this and move with direction and intention?
Jonathan Carver Moore: Um, that's a really good question. I think that it has been my entire life experience.
And I also think. Which I've written about or, you know, stated in other interviews is that I don't, I think it was 2019 when I felt like I saw myself on a wall in a museum, you know, like, and it was a photograph of Zanele Muholi.
A black and white photograph. Zanele Muholi is South African. They are queer. And I feel like I saw me [00:07:00] finally, and that was in 2019 now, then a few months later, we were all at home during the pandemic.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: And it just had me thinking a lot. Right. 'cause you know, we weren't in offices. I mean, we were working from home, but my mind just completely shifted.
Hm. And there was something about Muholi's photograph. And then in time, you know, I, I actually ended up interviewing them. We've become quite close friends. They've been somewhat of a mentor to me in this space at a different capacity. 'cause I'm not an artist, but like more of like just recognizing your self worth.
Mm-hmm. And I realized that these are stories that like, if I feel this experience, so many other people must feel the same way. And I just, I'm just tired of it. Mm-hmm. You know, like that was when I was 33 at the time. I'm now 38. And. I just wanted to change it. I don't know why. I felt like, you know, going into my fourth decade of living, I shouldn't be feeling that way.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Right.
Jonathan Carver Moore: And I don't want other people to feel that way. So that is really where it just shifted for me. Mm-hmm. I also think, [00:08:00] which a lot of people don't know, um, a lot of the shows that you see are about me. I don't tell people that like, but there've been moments where. I, you know, one of my most, I don't know, I think that was show number two called Blacks as Experience, not as a color.
That show I created because that's what I wanted to see in the world for myself.
Shawna Vesco Ahern:
Jonathan Carver Moore: And that is something that my mom has said to me. She was like, you know, you know, I went to great, I went to good schools. She always had me out and being exposed new things. But I remember her saying to me, which is another person's quote, but she said, black is an experience, black as an experience, not as a color.
And one day you'll realize that, and I learned it later on. When it came to like the job force and like looking for jobs and how people treat me. And I never saw that before. 'cause I grew up overseas, so maybe like the um, racism wasn't so overt. Mm-hmm. But then after when I came to the US and then going to college, I felt it much more.
But a lot of the titles and a lot of the shows, if you knew me, you would realize that it's about my [00:09:00] experience and the one that's getting ready to open up. You know, now by the time this podcast comes out, it will be already open, but like to be seen. Which is a show about all black queer individuals like that is how I felt like, I felt like I was never seen before, and I wanted to show like, what would it feel like to be seen?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: This is such a powerful way to just really lean into your intuition. Mm-hmm. And your experience and externalize it and the reaction you've been getting is amazing. How do you feel your relationship is like with the quote unquote, now I'm doing your quotes. Um, fine arts world. 'cause I feel like with our small little arts community here, you're valued, you're seeing, we love you, um, on a national level and even international art fairs.
How do you feel? What kind of splash are you making or not?
Jonathan Carver Moore: Uh, you know, I don't know because I think that I'm so focused. That I'm not paying attention to what's happening around me. Mm-hmm. You know, I, it's really great when I go to, you know, I've been [00:10:00] at Untitled Miami now a couple of times I've been Expo Chicago, I've done fog and I hear the compliments.
But like, I think I'm just so focused on what's happening with, um, the artist. And I'm actually usually focused on like, the next thing. Because I think people that are in the art world can relate to this. Like, you're never living in that moment. 'cause you're always, you're ready for what's happening next.
Mm-hmm. Or, you know, the next six months. Um, but I really appreciate all the love that I have received. Mm-hmm. Because I do feel that, and I do think particularly in San Francisco, people appreciate it, you know? And, but that makes me think even more about like living your life in the most, in the most authentic way.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Right.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Right. Because I feel like when you do people show up or, or maybe you're just living authentically that you don't even realize. The negativity around you because there's so much great coming to you.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Yeah. I was curious if your PR and comms background ever puts that little devil on your shoulder that does kind of have to look at that external world and analytics.
How's this landing data, all of [00:11:00] that?
Jonathan Carver Moore: I mean, it definitely is on my, the little devil is on my shoulder. Mm-hmm. Whispering in my ear sometimes. Um, but I think for the most part, it's usually the angel side. Or on my other shoulder saying that you should really talk about storytelling.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: And I really do feel like that is what has been successful in the gallery, is that there's always some sort of story that's behind it.
Mm-hmm. Because I feel like that's what people connect to.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: I'm glad you brought up your mom. Um, I don't always like to poke into people's family business, but I am so curious about, just a little bit more about how you were raised and what your family's reaction was to you entering the art world. Did they feel like that made sense for them?
Did they support that decision? Or did they say like, no, you should stay on this other career path. We're worried about money in this field. All those kinds of things.
Jonathan Carver Moore: You know, I, I have been fortunate enough to have a great support system. My husband has been very supportive, um, and my mother has too.
Mm-hmm. Uh, it was my husband that said, you should really just go do this now. You know, like [00:12:00] actually applied for a job as an assistant curator during the pandemic. I mean, you know, I think it was gonna literally be like a 75%. Pay gap from what I had before. Right.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Which, and already not a very high salary and curatorial No,
Jonathan Carver Moore: no.
Like it, I don't, I think it was living gonna be like $36,000. Yeah. Or $45,000. And he was like, you know, if anything, this is the time to do it. Like I'm in a position like we both live in, we're two people living in a household together. Mm-hmm. You should really go for this if this is what you wanna do.
And my mom was like, yeah, go for it. But then it was after that experience, and by the way, I did not take that job. I ended up getting a the job as a director.
Shawna Vesco Ahern:
Jonathan Carver Moore: Um, and then I ended up leaving in 11 months. Mm-hmm. And I kept thinking about how I really think I could. I thought I could shift the arts culture by not being in an institutional museum.
Shawna Vesco Ahern:
Jonathan Carver Moore: And I think they're really great, but that wasn't for me at the time. And both my mother and my husband were like, [00:13:00] you should go and open your own art gallery. And that's how we ended up here. And it was very supportive. Had no experience, you know, no technical experience in the arts, but. Um, experience curating and then also caring a lot about artists and really fighting for them when it came to spaces and that's how I ended up there.
So they were both supportive? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: I think what's so interesting too, about your space, you know, we're next door, so you're space next door. We're in this beautiful building that you've curated lovingly. You're building like a little empire in this area. Have you noticed? I don't, you know, well, I mean,
Jonathan Carver Moore: I have to be humble, but yeah, I guess I was the first.
Arts person on this block outside of blick. Mm-hmm. But what I love is that this block and this neighborhood is very supportive and we all help and show up for each other. Right. You know, like now we have the Community Arts Stabilization Trust who's bought a building where we're recording this podcast a couple doors down from the gallery.
blick is [00:14:00] across the street. I started an artist in residency to my left of the gallery. You know Ikea city centers here, Salu Hall, Vita Brevis is across the street. If you don't know Vita Brevis, that's a private arts club.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I mean, there's a lot of potential here. KLAW is coming here
Shawna Vesco Ahern: and it's just, it's so wild.
'cause you've really diversified sort of your reach and the programming. You've diversified the audience, you've diversified who you're showing the artists. And then what we started talking about when I first met you, this new collector that's coming up, this. Person who is maybe collecting for love or they're collecting to support you, you're building a new figure of a collector, um, someone who isn't tied in the same way as to like, what's the value of this artwork.
Mm-hmm. Um, maybe they're more interested now in like historical preservation. How are they gonna preserve a legacy of this kind of underrepresented artist? And I think that's so beautiful too. And I don't see a lot of galleries kind of focused on building a new sort of client or collector in the way that you are.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I [00:15:00] mean, I think it's. It's hard because, well, one, I should say, I think it has a lot to do with my nonprofit background. Like I care a lot about community, which I don't know that's necessarily a great thing for me in the commercial side of this business. Mm-hmm. Um, but
it is something that needs to happen. And I think, you know, I work with, you know, other museums and institutions and. You know, their collection strategy and also them also wanting to find new patrons.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I don't know how they would do that if they don't find the people that I'm working with. Right.
Right. Like, you know, we have to get to those new people. I have a couple that bought something for me in 2023 at the artwork was $4,000. In that show they never spend that much money on anything besides their house. Mm-hmm. Um, and now they buy things that are 25 and $30,000.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Right. And it's not about the dollar, but it's about they understand the value of [00:16:00] the artists and like what they're contributing to the world,
Shawna Vesco Ahern: right?
Jonathan Carver Moore: And them wanting to have it in their collection and also want to show their artwork. So this is back to this new idea of collector. I often think of, um, this might be a terrible analogy, but when, since I worked in fashion, it works in my mind, but I think about Mary Kate Ashley Olsen, who had the ro, they have the Row, which is a very high end brand, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, you know. Cashmere sweaters are $6,000, but then they have Elizabeth and James, and they have offshoots that you might find in Walgreens. Mm-hmm. Or CVS and Walmart. There are more people that buy the things from CVS, Walmart and Walgreens than there are that buy things in the row For sure.
And they've said it, and that's where their money is being made. I feel like similarly, that's how I feel about people and as new collectors. Mm-hmm. And finding those people who people don't think have the disposable income to buy something.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: But I don't think it's about the disposable income. I think it's about the storytelling as I mentioned before, and what's important to you and [00:17:00] understanding that.
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Like
Jonathan Carver Moore: the same way you might spend $10,000 on a live vacation and they'll on name off coast. It's the same thing to me, like how you would say this makes sense. Like, I want to hear about this artist. I'm connected to this artist because I'm black and I'm queer, I'm connected to the charges. 'cause I'm a woman and she's an immigrant and you know, we have the same similar story and background.
People spend money on those things.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Jonathan Carver Moore: and I think that that's sometimes what is missed in the bigger art world aspect is that you're so focused on one person and them buying that. Whereas if you can talk on someone's heartstrings and connect them to why this is important, then that's what they will spend money on.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Do you feel like when all this clicked together, do you feel now very at peace with where you are running? Your gallery, like you said, working with collectors and institutions to kind of diversify their collections, um, populating some of these buildings with artwork, you know, moving that currency around for artists.
Do you feel like you're good at this or do you feel like you're gonna kind of try and expand or grow in any way? [00:18:00] 'cause I'm nosy. I want to know.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I hope that I will grow. Um. I mean, to me, the whole point of this is like to evolve.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm. Right? Like I
Jonathan Carver Moore: want to see the evolution of the San Francisco Arts and Culture scene.
I would like to see the evolution of the art world in general.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I would like to see more people like me in the art world that are not just artists or, or not, um, focal points on a piece of art. It would be nice to see people behind the scenes that are like me, so. I would hope that I would mature and grow in other responsibilities.
Mm-hmm. You know, maybe it's not just a gallery, maybe it's heads of Arts and culture for city, you know, or um, being sitting on more committees. Mm. That's what I'm hoping to do next.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: So you're that kind of personality where you start doing something, you see the impact and you're like, Ooh, let's expand that.
Let's get [00:19:00] more impact. Let's move around more money. Let's help more people. Let's build bigger things. That's like. Is that exhausting? Or does that like give you energy?
Jonathan Carver Moore: I think it gives me energy, but then I'm usually tired at the end of the day, but it makes me wanna keep going. And also I like the ideas of collaboration.
Mm-hmm. You know, like that's probably what's most exciting to me about this is how much you can collaborate with so many different people in this world.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm. I've been talking with people about sort of the federal funding cuts and what the landscape is gonna look like, and everyone here says the same thing, which is, this is when we turn to each other.
Mm-hmm. This is the time to build those relationships. Do the collaborations, link the larger institutionals with the smaller nonprofits and keep the arts scene going, keep the currency going. You know, we've made it through recessions before, um, San Francisco in particular, you know, the recession was the beginning of our funk movement.
Mm-hmm. And in figurative. So I think what you're saying is so important of just linking up and bringing people together.
Jonathan Carver Moore: What do you think [00:20:00] about I, I'm asking you a question. Yeah. Do it. Um. Because I feel like, like you mentioned about the federal funding, so many things being cut. Mm-hmm. What do you think about the role of the gallery in stepping up since museums won't have certain money anymore to do certain things?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Yeah. I think from my short stints in fine arts galleries, um, initially there was not a lot of interest in public programming as a way of bringing in clients, you know, public programming. Doesn't sell art as I was told by one gallerist. Um, but I think there has been a turn, even before these cuts came down, where certain galleries are now realizing that bringing people in, even if it's in like an educational capacity or like a welcoming party kind of capacity or doing programming that has this kind of other thing happening in the background is relevant to sales.
Mm-hmm. So I don't know if galleries are really [00:21:00] gonna. Step in, unless it's also like mutually beneficial to them earning money, which is totally fine. But I do think I see the doors opening a little bit wider kind of every year. Um, 'cause we have all this energy going and it has to go somewhere. And so I think some galleries are kind of saying, okay, you can come in here and sort of do this work.
You know, I know Minnesota Street Project kind of, that was the foundation of what they are, is like, bring all these gallerists in, have them pay low to no rent, but then also have it kind of be an educational mm-hmm. Um, place. So I don't know. I hope galleries step up and kind of see this as an opportunity for them, but I don't know that it'll necessarily happen.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I mean, you know, the great thing about San Francisco, which I think is quite specific to the art world, you know, we sometimes don't get this, um, not, we're not known for being a city about art, but I actually think we are a city about art and collaboration.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Is that we really do step up, like people come here and look around what's happening.
We all share [00:22:00] resources. We always are supporting each other when it comes to gallery openings. Mm-hmm. Uh, or museum openings. I think a lot of galleries also give a lot to museums, you know, financially to help. I think though now our time for this is that since there's so many federal cuts and you know, certain shows are being cut mm-hmm.
This is the time for galleries to step up and like do those shows. Like, we don't get any federal funding, so I can have a whole show about black queer people.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: You know, and I mean, I might get talked about online or something, or in not such a great way, but I don't care. And I feel like that's what we can do as galleries on that end.
It's like, you know, I was just in a meeting with a museum here in San Francisco and they have taken away a show about one queer artist because they're scared that they're gonna lose money.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Which I get it,
Shawna Vesco Ahern: right. Like, you know, if you're different stakeholders, different priorities
Jonathan Carver Moore: and you're just like, wow, that's so interesting.
So I feel like though us as galleries, we, that's when we can step [00:23:00] in and give you the shows. I was
Shawna Vesco Ahern: gonna say, is that artist about to be in your gallery next year? Well, you know,
Jonathan Carver Moore: they didn't tell me who the artist was. I was really interested. Um, but it's just interesting to see and learn that they have to think like that because of federal funding.
Mm-hmm. But. As scholars, we can go and do it ourselves. Not necessarily you're your own development
Shawna Vesco Ahern: team, you're your own marketing team. You get to make those calls. Mm-hmm. And you get to live with the consequences, which actually might not be consequences. You know, you might be really validated if you Yeah.
You know, take up an artist. That's sort of question in other spaces.
Jonathan Carver Moore: I'm very curious to see what art's gonna look like in, you know, three and a half years.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: So maybe now is the time, and I hope you take this as seriously as I do to ask the magic eight ball a question. A yes or no question? Any question?
Jonathan Carver Moore: Any question, any
Shawna Vesco Ahern: question. Could be small, could be large. And she's never wrong. So be careful 'cause she's never wrong.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Okay. Magic eight ball. How big? [00:24:00] It's a yes or no.
Yes or no?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Will I have another gallery in five years?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Ooh,
Jonathan Carver Moore: I can't see
my sources say. Yes.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Magic eight Ball.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Well, now I'm like, how many?
Shawna Vesco Ahern: Well, thank you so much for participating in this podcast and extending that good community energy.
Jonathan Carver Moore: Thank you for having me.
This was
Shawna Vesco Ahern: really fun.
Jonathan Carver Moore: It was fun.
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Until next time, keep imagining. Keep creating and keep yapping.
Shawna Vesco Ahern: [00:25:00]